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Add Solution

Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Source: microsoft.public.virtualpc
Sent: 10/25/2008
From: Rich Cini
Message:

Hi, all:

I have DOS 6.22 and WFWG running in a VM and I wanted to experiment with
wringing the last bit of conventional memory out of the configuration by
using one of my favorite memory managers of that era, Quarterdeck QEMM 7.5.
Has anyone been able to get this to work successfully under VPC? During the
optimization part of the install, I get a GPF during the optimization,
followed by an invalid opcode fault (06).

Although this question is specific to VPC2007, I've tried this under other
virtual machine technologies (like Parallels) and QEMM doesn't work there
either. What about QEMM do the VMs not like? Does VPC not emulate every type
of CPU instruction?

Thanks for the info!

Post Reply | This is Spam! | Mark as Spam

Related Messages

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 10/25/2008
From: Rich Cini
Message:

"Bo Berglund" wrote:

Yes, I forgot that distinction since I'm running DOS within the virtual
environment. I'm used to real CPU emulation (since I work on cross-platform
stuff more frequently). I wonder if something in Intel's virtualization
hardware creates a subtle, but incompatible change to some aspect of the
instruction set that causes problems for these older programs?

I wonder if disabling host CPU virtualization support will change anything?
I may also have a closer look at the faulting instruction and see if that
provides any clues.

Thanks.

Show quoted text

> As far as I know the CPU is *not* emulated, it is virtualized. This
> means that the host CPU is actually running the code in your virtual
> machine at full speed during the time slices it gets to use it.
> Maybe QEMM is not compatible with today's CPU:s???

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 10/25/2008
From: "Steve Jain [MVP]" <(email address - cut out)>
Message:

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:31:01 -0700, Rich Cini <Rich
(email address - cut out)> wrote:

With VPC there are specific address ranges you need to exclude in
QEMM. I have no idea what they are any more, unfortunately.
I'll look through my old CNTX stuff and see if I have a reference
anywhere.

--
Cheers,
Steve Jain, Virtual Machine MVP
http://vpc.essjae.com/

Show quoted text

>Hi, all:
>
> I have DOS 6.22 and WFWG running in a VM and I wanted to experiment with
>wringing the last bit of conventional memory out of the configuration by
>using one of my favorite memory managers of that era, Quarterdeck QEMM 7.5.
>Has anyone been able to get this to work successfully under VPC? During the
>optimization part of the install, I get a GPF during the optimization,
>followed by an invalid opcode fault (06).
>
> Although this question is specific to VPC2007, I've tried this under other
>virtual machine technologies (like Parallels) and QEMM doesn't work there
>either. What about QEMM do the VMs not like? Does VPC not emulate every type
>of CPU instruction?
>
> Thanks for the info!

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 10/25/2008
From: Rich Cini
Message:

"Steve Jain [MVP]" wrote:

Steve:

Oh, yes, I remember those! I actually found the solution, and it didn't
involve manual range excludes (see below). The success of using QEMM depends
on the version of QEMM you use. I had been trying to use QEMM 7.5 which
clearly didn't work. I found a copy of QEMM8 and that worked perfectly -- no
special incantations necessary. The install completed fine, as did the
automatic "optimize" function. When it was done, the command line included an
aweful lot of include/exclude ranges.

I did not try to use QEMM97 (the final version before Quarterdeck Office
Systems went bye-bye), but I would imagine that it would work as well.

Your comment about the range excludes reminded me of all of the manual
tweaking required back then. I remember spending hours trying to squeeze one
last driver into the configuration. Ah, those were the days.

Regards,
Rich

Show quoted text

> On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:31:01 -0700, Rich Cini <Rich
> (email address - cut out)> wrote:
>
> >Hi, all:
> >
> > I have DOS 6.22 and WFWG running in a VM and I wanted to experiment with
> >wringing the last bit of conventional memory out of the configuration by
> >using one of my favorite memory managers of that era, Quarterdeck QEMM 7.5.
> >Has anyone been able to get this to work successfully under VPC? During the
> >optimization part of the install, I get a GPF during the optimization,
> >followed by an invalid opcode fault (06).
> >
> > Although this question is specific to VPC2007, I've tried this under other
> >virtual machine technologies (like Parallels) and QEMM doesn't work there
> >either. What about QEMM do the VMs not like? Does VPC not emulate every type
> >of CPU instruction?
> >
> > Thanks for the info!
>
> With VPC there are specific address ranges you need to exclude in
> QEMM. I have no idea what they are any more, unfortunately.
> I'll look through my old CNTX stuff and see if I have a reference
> anywhere.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Steve Jain, Virtual Machine MVP
> http://vpc.essjae.com/

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 10/25/2008
From: DevilsPGD <(email address - cut out)>
Message:

In message <(email address - cut out)> Rich
Cini <(email address - cut out)> was claimed to have wrote:

Forget one last driver, even then, there was always the nagging
suspicion that you could get another KB of free memory by reorganizing
too, or changing the load order.

Whether the fact that kids these days never get to learn that is a
blessing or a curse, I don't know.

Show quoted text

> Your comment about the range excludes reminded me of all of the manual
>tweaking required back then. I remember spending hours trying to squeeze one
>last driver into the configuration. Ah, those were the days.

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 10/25/2008
From: Rich Cini
Message:

"DevilsPGD" wrote:

We sound so much like our parents :-)

Seriously, this kind of hand optimization turned into an art that is lost on
kids these days. Also, having two kids in grammar school, I think there is a
big missing opportunity in teaching BASIC. I learned a lot about logical
thinking and breaking problems down into smaller and easier parts. Now, don't
get me wrong -- the computer classes they take are pretty good, but they are
task-oriented classes: how to make graphs using Excel, that kind of stuff.

Regards,
Rich

Show quoted text

> Forget one last driver, even then, there was always the nagging
> suspicion that you could get another KB of free memory by reorganizing
> too, or changing the load order.
>
> Whether the fact that kids these days never get to learn that is a
> blessing or a curse, I don't know.

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 10/25/2008
From: Bo Berglund <(email address - cut out)>
Message:

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:31:01 -0700, Rich Cini <Rich
(email address - cut out)> wrote:

As far as I know the CPU is *not* emulated, it is virtualized. This
means that the host CPU is actually running the code in your virtual
machine at full speed during the time slices it gets to use it.
Maybe QEMM is not compatible with today's CPU:s???

--

Bo Berglund (Sweden)

Show quoted text

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 10/25/2008
From: "Zootal" <(email address - cut out)>
Message:

"DevilsPGD" <(email address - cut out)> wrote in message
news:(email address - cut out)...

Kids these days (meaning the younger generation of IT workers and
programmers in general) don't know squat about computers in general it
seems. I remember Qemm very well, along with Tems and a few others that
didn't work so well. That last few versions of Qemm were quite good - the
6.x versions were pure crap. And I remember very well juggling drivers to
get the cursed thing to load! I remember having 3 or 4 different boot
floppies for different tasks LOL. Ahhh...the good old days. Ask kids these
days what extended or expanded memory is. You get blank stares.

Show quoted text

> In message <(email address - cut out)> Rich
> Cini <(email address - cut out)> was claimed to have wrote:
>
>> Your comment about the range excludes reminded me of all of the manual
>>tweaking required back then. I remember spending hours trying to squeeze
>>one
>>last driver into the configuration. Ah, those were the days.
>
> Forget one last driver, even then, there was always the nagging
> suspicion that you could get another KB of free memory by reorganizing
> too, or changing the load order.
>
> Whether the fact that kids these days never get to learn that is a
> blessing or a curse, I don't know.

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 10/26/2008
From: "Tony Toews [MVP]" <(email address - cut out)>
Message:

Rich Cini <(email address - cut out)> wrote:

Thanks for the memories and the flashback to the red box with the logo
on it. I wrote an article or two on these for an IBM midrange
magazine (IBM AS/400) on this topic back in about 1990 or so.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
Tony's Microsoft Access Blog - http://msmvps.com/blogs/access/

Show quoted text

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 10/26/2008
From: DevilsPGD <(email address - cut out)>
Message:

In message <(email address - cut out)> Rich
Cini <(email address - cut out)> was claimed to have wrote:

I blame The MTV and The Rap Music for giving all the kids ADD.

(Okay seriously, I was a Much Music fan when I was a kid too, whereas my
kids probably haven't watched 30 minutes of MM/MTV in their lives)

And worse, they not only don't encourage students to tinker, some even
forbid kids from going into Tools --> Options and rearranging toolbars
or similar personalization. (And yes, said school board does have
per-user accounts, and the machines are properly configured so that one
kids' changes won't impact the next user of the machine)

It's no wonder that when these kids hit the work force they're totally
unprepared for anything other then the specific activity which they were
taught.

Show quoted text

>Seriously, this kind of hand optimization turned into an art that is lost on
>kids these days.
>Also, having two kids in grammar school, I think there is a
>big missing opportunity in teaching BASIC. I learned a lot about logical
>thinking and breaking problems down into smaller and easier parts. Now, don't
>get me wrong -- the computer classes they take are pretty good, but they are
>task-oriented classes: how to make graphs using Excel, that kind of stuff.

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 01/09/2009
From: "Steve Jain [MVP]" <(email address - cut out)>
Message:

On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 19:06:32 -0500, "Bob Campbell" <(email address - cut out)> wrote:

QEMM may work, it did back in the old days under VPC.
you need to explicitly specify which UMBs it can use. Make
sure you include the area CC00-DFFF, but exclude everything else

This may or may not work in VPC07SP1, a lot of things have been
changed, removed, restricted to meet the MS security requirements.

--
Cheers,
Steve Jain, Virtual Machine MVP
http://vpc.essjae.com/

Show quoted text

>"Amanda Rivera" <(email address - cut out)> wrote in message
>news:(email address - cut out)...
>>
>>> Hi, all:
>>>
>>> I have DOS 6.22 and WFWG running in a VM and I wanted to experiment
>>> with
>>> wringing the last bit of conventional memory out of the configuration by
>>> using one of my favorite memory managers of that era, Quarterdeck QEMM
>>> 7.5.
>>> Has anyone been able to get this to work successfully under VPC? During
>>> the
>>> optimization part of the install, I get a GPF during the optimization,
>>> followed by an invalid opcode fault (06).
>
>QEMM is expecting to be installed in a real mode CPU environment, and then
>*it* switches the CPU into 386 protected mode and runs the show, managing
>the memory. Your Windows host OS (2000 or XP or Vista or whatever) is
>*already* running in 386 protected mode, and Windows is managing the memory.
>The "emulated CPU" in VPC does not give you real mode. It is already in
>386 protected mode. Changing the CPU mode back to real mode while XP is
>running will certainly crash the system.
>
>In short, QEMM will never work in VPC. The best you can do is use
>HIMEM.SYS from DOS 6.22. Doing this, I get 596K or 610,608 bytes free in
>DOS in VPC. Back in the day I remember getting lots more than that, up to
>736K if I was using pure text mode and no herc or CGA/EGA graphics!
>
>But QEMM *was* loads of fun. It was like an "adventure game" for geeks.
>You could literally spend days playing around with all of the options,
>remapping unused ROM and filling up "RAM holes" with RAM "borrowed" from
>above the 1 meg boundary.
>
>Ah, memories.

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 01/09/2009
From: "Bob Campbell" <(email address - cut out)>
Message:

"Amanda Rivera" <(email address - cut out)> wrote in message
news:(email address - cut out)...

QEMM is expecting to be installed in a real mode CPU environment, and then
*it* switches the CPU into 386 protected mode and runs the show, managing
the memory. Your Windows host OS (2000 or XP or Vista or whatever) is
*already* running in 386 protected mode, and Windows is managing the memory.
The "emulated CPU" in VPC does not give you real mode. It is already in
386 protected mode. Changing the CPU mode back to real mode while XP is
running will certainly crash the system.

In short, QEMM will never work in VPC. The best you can do is use
HIMEM.SYS from DOS 6.22. Doing this, I get 596K or 610,608 bytes free in
DOS in VPC. Back in the day I remember getting lots more than that, up to
736K if I was using pure text mode and no herc or CGA/EGA graphics!

But QEMM *was* loads of fun. It was like an "adventure game" for geeks.
You could literally spend days playing around with all of the options,
remapping unused ROM and filling up "RAM holes" with RAM "borrowed" from
above the 1 meg boundary.

Ah, memories.

Show quoted text

>
>> Hi, all:
>>
>> I have DOS 6.22 and WFWG running in a VM and I wanted to experiment
>> with
>> wringing the last bit of conventional memory out of the configuration by
>> using one of my favorite memory managers of that era, Quarterdeck QEMM
>> 7.5.
>> Has anyone been able to get this to work successfully under VPC? During
>> the
>> optimization part of the install, I get a GPF during the optimization,
>> followed by an invalid opcode fault (06).

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 01/09/2009
From: "Bob Campbell" <(email address - cut out)>
Message:

"Steve Jain [MVP]" <(email address - cut out)> wrote in message
news:(email address - cut out)...

I was thinking of QEMM386, which definitely will not work. This was the
version that expected to be installed on a 386 (or higher) CPU in DOS real
mode, but actually ran the CPU in 386 protected mode providing virtual DOS
sessions in 386 mode. QEMM 7.5 is the 386 version of QEMM, and is the one
I used way back when. That and DesqView 386 was what I used on a couple
machines at work for reliable multi-tasking of large DOS apps on 386 and
early 486 hardware. This was in the Windows 3.0/3.1 timeframe, which were
not always so good at running large DOS apps.

But other versions of QEMM that worked with your existing EMM386 software
and/or EEMS 4.0 hardware might work in VPC.

Show quoted text

> QEMM may work, it did back in the old days under VPC.
> you need to explicitly specify which UMBs it can use. Make
> sure you include the area CC00-DFFF, but exclude everything else

RE: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 01/09/2009
From: "Amanda Rivera"<(email address - cut out)>
Message:

hi
byn32s0y1xxjnx77
good luck

Posted via http://www.VirtualServerFaq.com - Brought to you by Business Information Technology Shop - http://www.bitshop.com

Show quoted text

> Hi, all:
>
> I have DOS 6.22 and WFWG running in a VM and I wanted to experiment with
> wringing the last bit of conventional memory out of the configuration by
> using one of my favorite memory managers of that era, Quarterdeck QEMM 7.5.
> Has anyone been able to get this to work successfully under VPC? During the
> optimization part of the install, I get a GPF during the optimization,
> followed by an invalid opcode fault (06).
>
> Although this question is specific to VPC2007, I've tried this under other
> virtual machine technologies (like Parallels) and QEMM doesn't work there
> either. What about QEMM do the VMs not like? Does VPC not emulate every type
> of CPU instruction?
>
> Thanks for the info!

RE: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 01/09/2009
From: "Amanda Rivera"<(email address - cut out)>
Message:

hi
byn32s0y1xxjnx77
good luck

Posted via http://www.VirtualServerFaq.com - Brought to you by Business Information Technology Shop - http://www.bitshop.com

Show quoted text

> Hi, all:
>
> I have DOS 6.22 and WFWG running in a VM and I wanted to experiment with
> wringing the last bit of conventional memory out of the configuration by
> using one of my favorite memory managers of that era, Quarterdeck QEMM 7.5.
> Has anyone been able to get this to work successfully under VPC? During the
> optimization part of the install, I get a GPF during the optimization,
> followed by an invalid opcode fault (06).
>
> Although this question is specific to VPC2007, I've tried this under other
> virtual machine technologies (like Parallels) and QEMM doesn't work there
> either. What about QEMM do the VMs not like? Does VPC not emulate every type
> of CPU instruction?
>
> Thanks for the info!

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 01/09/2009
From: "Steve Jain [MVP]" <(email address - cut out)>
Message:

On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 21:09:39 -0500, "Bob Campbell" <(email address - cut out)> wrote:

DesqView! Wow, I remember paying about $100-200 or so for that
bundled with QEMM.

--
Cheers,
Steve Jain, Virtual Machine MVP
http://vpc.essjae.com/

Show quoted text

>"Steve Jain [MVP]" <(email address - cut out)> wrote in message
>news:(email address - cut out)...
>> QEMM may work, it did back in the old days under VPC.
>> you need to explicitly specify which UMBs it can use. Make
>> sure you include the area CC00-DFFF, but exclude everything else
>
>I was thinking of QEMM386, which definitely will not work. This was the
>version that expected to be installed on a 386 (or higher) CPU in DOS real
>mode, but actually ran the CPU in 386 protected mode providing virtual DOS
>sessions in 386 mode. QEMM 7.5 is the 386 version of QEMM, and is the one
>I used way back when. That and DesqView 386 was what I used on a couple
>machines at work for reliable multi-tasking of large DOS apps on 386 and
>early 486 hardware. This was in the Windows 3.0/3.1 timeframe, which were
>not always so good at running large DOS apps.
>
>But other versions of QEMM that worked with your existing EMM386 software
>and/or EEMS 4.0 hardware might work in VPC.

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 01/10/2009
From: "Bob Campbell" <(email address - cut out)>
Message:

"Steve Jain [MVP]" <(email address - cut out)> wrote in message
news:(email address - cut out)...

Yeah. The combo was called DesqView386 and turned your 386 PC with 2 megs
(or 4 if you were rich) RAM into a real DOS multitasker. This is when RAM
was $200 a meg!

Show quoted text

> DesqView! Wow, I remember paying about $100-200 or so for that
> bundled with QEMM.

RE: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 01/11/2009
From: "Barb Dillard"<(email address - cut out)>
Message:

hi
byn32s0y1xxjnx77
good luck

Posted via http://www.VirtualServerFaq.com - Brought to you by Business Information Technology Shop - http://www.bitshop.com

Show quoted text

> Hi, all:
>
> I have DOS 6.22 and WFWG running in a VM and I wanted to experiment with
> wringing the last bit of conventional memory out of the configuration by
> using one of my favorite memory managers of that era, Quarterdeck QEMM 7.5.
> Has anyone been able to get this to work successfully under VPC? During the
> optimization part of the install, I get a GPF during the optimization,
> followed by an invalid opcode fault (06).
>
> Although this question is specific to VPC2007, I've tried this under other
> virtual machine technologies (like Parallels) and QEMM doesn't work there
> either. What about QEMM do the VMs not like? Does VPC not emulate every type
> of CPU instruction?
>
> Thanks for the info!

RE: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 01/11/2009
From: "Barb Dillard"<(email address - cut out)>
Message:

hi
byn32s0y1xxjnx77
good luck

Posted via http://www.VirtualServerFaq.com - Brought to you by Business Information Technology Shop - http://www.bitshop.com

Show quoted text

> Hi, all:
>
> I have DOS 6.22 and WFWG running in a VM and I wanted to experiment with
> wringing the last bit of conventional memory out of the configuration by
> using one of my favorite memory managers of that era, Quarterdeck QEMM 7.5.
> Has anyone been able to get this to work successfully under VPC? During the
> optimization part of the install, I get a GPF during the optimization,
> followed by an invalid opcode fault (06).
>
> Although this question is specific to VPC2007, I've tried this under other
> virtual machine technologies (like Parallels) and QEMM doesn't work there
> either. What about QEMM do the VMs not like? Does VPC not emulate every type
> of CPU instruction?
>
> Thanks for the info!

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 01/31/2009
From: "Bob Campbell" <(email address - cut out)>
Message:

"Gary Kindt" <(email address - cut out)> wrote in message
news:(email address - cut out)...

The problem is that QEMM expects to be loaded in real mode DOS. Then QEMM
switches the CPU to 386 protected mode and becomes the supervisor. Since
the CPU when running Windows and VPC is already in 386 protected mode, QEMM
can not "take over", and there is no real mode DOS to start with.

Show quoted text

> As far as I know, Qemm had BIOS level hooks as well. It may well be
> impossible to get it running in a VDM, unless we can find a VDM that
> completely spoofs the old DOS chipset hardware hooks.

RE: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 01/31/2009
From: "Gary Kindt"<(email address - cut out)>
Message:

The best thing about it was DesqViewX It was one of the first non-unix x-servers (was the first IIRC), and it would actually run a remote process, if under TCP/IP, which was OUTSTANDING! You could find any old unused machine on the network, and do your process there, and keep your machine's time slices for your other needs.

As far as I know, Qemm had BIOS level hooks as well. It may well be impossible to get it running in a VDM, unless we can find a VDM that completely spoofs the old DOS chipset hardware hooks.

It would be nice, however, if I could find a way to fool DesqViewX into thinking it was loaded, so that I could run that OS. It almost seems like that might be simpler. Shame Quarterdeck source code never made it out anywhere. It was a really great little OS, and would be still with us had Bill Gates not shot down his agreement with quarterdeck to provide them with Win32 compatibility hooks. After that, all the IT pros that ever used it dumped it due to not keeping up with compatibility. OS/2 got screwed in a very similar manner as did the Power PC versions of Windows.

Posted via http://www.VirtualServerFaq.com - Brought to you by Business Information Technology Shop - http://www.bitshop.com

Show quoted text

> Hi, all:
>
> I have DOS 6.22 and WFWG running in a VM and I wanted to experiment with
> wringing the last bit of conventional memory out of the configuration by
> using one of my favorite memory managers of that era, Quarterdeck QEMM 7.5.
> Has anyone been able to get this to work successfully under VPC? During the
> optimization part of the install, I get a GPF during the optimization,
> followed by an invalid opcode fault (06).
>
> Although this question is specific to VPC2007, I've tried this under other
> virtual machine technologies (like Parallels) and QEMM doesn't work there
> either. What about QEMM do the VMs not like? Does VPC not emulate every type
> of CPU instruction?
>
> Thanks for the info!

Re: Using QEMM in a virtual machine

Sent: 02/01/2009
From: Robert Riebisch <(email address - cut out)>
Message:

Bob Campbell wrote:

Sorry, but this is wrong! Emulated/virtualized CPU in
VPC/VMware/Bochs/QEMU starts in real mode. If there would be no real
mode DOS, how could a default DOS installation with EMM386 work in those
VMs?

--
Robert Riebisch
Bitte NUR in der Newsgroup antworten!
Please reply to the Newsgroup ONLY!

Show quoted text

> The problem is that QEMM expects to be loaded in real mode DOS. Then QEMM
> switches the CPU to 386 protected mode and becomes the supervisor. Since
> the CPU when running Windows and VPC is already in 386 protected mode, QEMM
> can not "take over", and there is no real mode DOS to start with.

Post Reply | This is Spam! | Mark as Spam

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